Early tricones vs. later tricones

Peter Garellick · Post by **Peter Garellick** » 19 Feb 2017 10:23 pm

Aloha everyone,

I enjoyed and appreciated all the info on the thread about gaskets. By the way, what do you all use to clean the bodies of these vintage tricones?

I was lucky enough to have just acquired an early tricone, a 1927 Style 1 square neck with the serial number 163. I also have a 1930 Style 1, so here's my observations about the differences. I'll try to post some photos at the bottom.

1) The 1927 has the thin, hand soldered grills, the 1930 has machine stamped grills.

2) The 1927 has a flat back, the 1930 has a raised edge.

3) The 1927 neck thickness is 29mm, the 1930 is 32mm.

4) The 1927 width of the fret board at the 1st fret is 45mm, the 1930 is 49mm.

5) The wood of the headstock and fretboard seems different but I can't be sure.

6) The 1927 has "Pat Pend" stamped below the fretboard, the 1930 has patent numbers.

7) The 1927 has 1 dot at the 12th fret, the 1930 has 2.

The 1927 serial number is a smaller font size than the 1930.

9) The 1927 is 75mm depth at the shoulder, the 1930 is 72mm.

10) The 1927 has a wood sound well, the 1930 is metal.

I didn't see any evidence of gaskets under the cones, though it seems there was a gasket on the rim where the cover plate sits.

A few other observations...someone pencilled in the serial number inside the back of the guitar, as well as on the back of the cover plate. The inside of the cover plate looks clearly hand-soldered, though I can't remember what my 1930 looks like. Also the posts that hold up the wood bar look different than the 1930 one.

Overall, the 1927 definitely has a bit of a more handmade look to it. I have read some sources that indicate that these early ones were made differently than the ones starting around serial number 200, and my observations of would lead me to agree.

Now the important thing...the sound! Currently, the 1927 is quieter than the 1930, a little more piercing on the higher pitches, but missing more of the bottom end. Unfortunately the cones in the 1927 are a little rough, and it looks like a replacement will be necessary.

Anyway, here's a few pics...enjoy!

Peter

The 1927 on top, 1930 below

The underside of the wood sound well, painted silver.

post and bottom of guitar

underside of cover plate

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 20 Feb 2017 6:53 am

It's great to see an in-hand comparison of such an early version and a "normal" one. Good stuff.
I have a '28 round neck and a 'ca '30-31 squareneck and they make a wonderful noise.

Charles Stange · Post by **Charles Stange** » 20 Feb 2017 7:31 am

I own #217 and it has a stamped grill, single dot at 12th, no "Pat Pend" stamp, Will check out the other details later. Mine also has an early engraving of what looks like an owners fancy initials on the side of the neck near the headstock, I'll try to post a picture later.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 7:40 am

I have SN 201--it's pretty much the same as your number 163,but cones have been replaced with new NRP cones. It had what looked to be OMI replacements in it when I got it. The new ones are much better.

As far as tone--it is a little quieter than my later tricones were, and maybe a little more midrange. It's mellower sounding than my later ones were--very sweet sounding.

Mine is the latest serial number old type tricones I've heard of. It's on page 15 of Mark Makin's book. It's heavily engraved, but more in the style of some of the later Dopyera banjos than the National guitars. It's old work, but whether it's something done by one of the National folks at the time or someone else is anybody's guess. There's not anything else I've seen like it...

Dave

Former Member · Post by **Former Member** » 20 Feb 2017 8:10 am

Please post some pictures of these tricones!
Flitz is whats recommended for the NRP brass and GS guitars, to clean and polish.
I probably won't ever have a vintage Nat, due to playing left handed. I've been told of only one example of a lefty from that era, don't know if it's a squareneck or? If anyone out there has it, I'd like to see a pic of it!
It's been debated whether it's necessary to even have a lefty with a tricone, that the tone differences are minimal because of the cone placement, don't know.
I have a brass hollow neck lefty, and will be ordering a GS pretty soon, just have to save up the 6,500$

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 8:26 am

Not very good photography, but here's number 201.

Former Member · Post by **Former Member** » 20 Feb 2017 8:33 am

Dave,
that engraving is unbelievable! That had to be a special order, or for someone special, do you know the history of it? That's a true collectors guitar. Thanks!

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 8:51 am

I got it years ago from a guy in Bristol Tn/Va. I have no idea of its heritage. I would have to assume it was played in one of the local hillbilly bands of the era but who knows.

The engraving is much cruder than the standard model Nationals of the time, but it looks amazingly close to what the metal resonator engraving on Dopyera banjos from the sixties look like. Did Rudy engrave it? Who knows. But it's cool and sounds great.

Dave

Peter Garellick · Post by **Peter Garellick** » 20 Feb 2017 9:34 am

That 201 is really cool!

Has anyone actually used Flitz to clean a vintage tricone? Did it work well? I'm terrified of messing up the finish.

Peter

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 9:42 am

I've used Mothers Billet Polishwith good luck. It's non abrasive.

Former Member · Post by **Former Member** » 20 Feb 2017 10:12 am

Bristol,TN??
Did his name end in "Carter"?
If I remember the story right, Bristol was an early crossroads for ol' timey music.
Wow, the stories these old Nats could tell.. I believe the traveling Hawaiian bands also came through there.
Does anyone know the number of total squarenecks built by National?

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 10:21 am

Nope. Not a Carter as far as I know. I got it from Joe Morrell who had taken it in on trade in the 70s or so and had it hanging in his "Grand Guitar" museum for years. That place was pretty unique in itself--it was a building shaped like a D28 guitar. It's still there but falling into disrepair. At any rate, Joe was closing the museum and put a lot of its contents up for sale. Maybe mid 90's? I can't remember for sure. Like the Carters, Joe was an East Tennessee fixture in music for many years.

Dave

Philip Garcia · Post by **Philip Garcia** » 20 Feb 2017 11:10 am

These are absolutely beautiful vintage tricones. Looks like the German silver ones.

I'd love to hear how these particular models sound. Please let us know when any of you post some audio on them.

P.S. Also, let me know when you're finished using it, so I can try it out.

Joe Burke · Post by **Joe Burke** » 20 Feb 2017 1:49 pm

I've used fitz to clean up a Republic tricone. Seemed to work well. I also used it to clean my Gretsch resonator (I think it's) aluminum top. Worked nice.

Lee Holliday · Post by **Lee Holliday** » 20 Feb 2017 2:24 pm

Heres my later tricone, believed to be the last style 2 german silver with a style 35/97 twist

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 20 Feb 2017 2:53 pm

Beautiful!

Peter Garellick · Post by **Peter Garellick** » 20 Feb 2017 5:48 pm

Hi Lee,

Is it a style 35 or 97? Please post a pic of the back if so!

Peter

Michael Hogan · Post by **Michael Hogan** » 21 Feb 2017 1:37 am

Hi Peter I have both a 35 and 97. I hope you like them.

[/img]

Peter Garellick · Post by **Peter Garellick** » 21 Feb 2017 11:01 am

Wow, those are gorgeous!

How do they play? I understand that those 2 models have a brass, not german silver body. It seems like the style 35 has the standard hollowneck, but the 97 has a wood squareneck. Does that seem to affect the tone or playability? And may I ask what's the serial numbers on those?

Also in answer to Ron's question earlier, Brozman's book on nationals says that the squareneck tricones run from number 100 to 3323, from 1927-1934, so about 3,200 were made, with the first 100 or so being the "early" tricones with the hand soldered grills and other differences.

Thanks again for those pics....amazing guitars!

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 21 Feb 2017 1:55 pm

209:

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 21 Feb 2017 4:10 pm

Very nice! That one has to be close to the last of the older style tricones. Looks pristine to boot!

Dave

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 21 Feb 2017 10:04 pm

209 was lightly oxidized all over when I got it and had a couple of seam separations. Don Young (R.I.P.) and crew at National Reso-Phonic soldered and polished it back to where it looks more like new than 90.

Interesting that 217 has a stamped grill! So mine is near the last of the early ones--handmade by John and Rudy.

I once stumbled onto #124 (Style 1, hand-soldered grille and seven diamond cutouts on the top. Also a different fretboard--flush fretmarkers as I recall. I referred it to a rockstar friend of mine of more considerable means than myself although he got it for about half of what I thought it was worth...being a piece of the True Cross and all.

Lee Holliday · Post by **Lee Holliday** » 22 Feb 2017 2:24 pm

It is a German silver style 2 with the hollow neck, it has the 35/97 headstock overlay & fingerboard. Mark Makin thinks it may be the last known style 2 as they were not really into German silver models at that time.
The more we think we know about National the more suprises that pop up.

Hiro Keitora · Post by **Hiro Keitora** » 22 Feb 2017 3:19 pm

Hi peeps, mine is stamped 1467 at the back of neck-
(was told '29 but anyone can confirm?) Speck is just like Peter's '30 one.
Also, can anyone tell me what's the proper "nut height" for this vintage? Dobro usually has much higher nut, correct?
If everything else is equal, I think lower nut will give more "take off angle" at the bridge so it contributes a little more tension there... Or am I missing something

O, and it's Style 1.

Peter Garellick · Post by **Peter Garellick** » 22 Feb 2017 8:57 pm

Hi Hiro,

It seems 1467 is indeed a 1929. Here's a website that lists national serial numbers:

http://www.guitarhq.com/national.html#serial

I have my nut set up about 1/4 inch high measuring from fretboard to top of the nut. That seems a really good height, no chance of hitting the bar on the treble side of the fretboard when soloing on the first string. Plenty of volume.

Lee, that is unusual to have that headstock on a tricone. What's the serial number on that?

The Steel Guitar Forum

Early tricones vs. later tricones

Early tricones vs. later tricones

Style 35 & 97

1927