Emmons PP Tuning issue

[Carl Burcham]

Was hoping someone could help with this, on my E to F raise lever (RKL) I cannot get it in tune on the changer, no matter what way I rotate the screw it is not moving up or down in pitch it’s staying exactly where it was originally. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Carl

[Jerry Overstreet]

viewtopic.php?t=408786&hilit=tuning+push+pull+F+lever

Here is your discussion from a few years back.

It's been a long time since I had a P/P, but doesn't the E to F lever tune underneath the guitar?

Generally, problems with the 4th string arise due to lack of slack in the mechanics.

Someone like Ian Worley who is more recently familiar with the push pull system can probably talk your through resolving this issue. Good luck.

[Carl Burcham]

Jerry,
Totally forgot I had made that post, I’m coming up on a year of playing and back then I wasn’t using my levers much at all but now that I’ve learned a little more, I’m seeing how I can incorporate them. But I was gifted my Emmons from my uncle and I had asked him about it and he said he has never had to go up underneath it over the 30 years he played it to tune that raise so I’m just a little confused.

[Jerry Overstreet]

What I was referring to under the guitar, there is a knurled finger operated knob on a rod that tunes the F note, isn't there?

I've forgotten the sequence exactly but I believe on a P/P, for the 4th string, tune the C pedal raise with the tuning key, tune the open E note with the bottom row, tune the lowered Eb note with the top row then tune the F lever F note with the knurled knob underneath.

If this is not your issue not the correct procedure, I apologize, expect and defer to more knowledgeable push pull operators.

[Carl Burcham]

It does have that little knuckle, but it doesn’t rotate in the slightest, but tuning wise tune it open at the key heads, then hit pedals and tune again at the key heads. But if it’s sharp of flat you use the bottom row of screws to adjust. Then levers is tune open at the key heads then engage the lever and keep it engaged while I use the top row of screws to tune. But what I was getting as was my uncle who played this Emmons for 30+ years said he never had to tune it with that knuckle, but from a little research on YouTube I came across a video on tuning an Emmons PP by Shane Frame and he did mention to tune that raise it does need to be done with that knuckle. That’s where my confusion is with it.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I'm going to let a more knowledgeable person explain it maybe better than I can, but I think you have the tuning out of sequence.

You need to tune the C pedal with the keys, You need to tune the open E note with the bottom row of screws, then only the lower Eb with the top row. You do not use the top row to tune raises.
If you follow this, it's possible your F lever already may be in tune according to what your uncle said.

Just wait a little bit and I'm sure someone such as Ian will come along and help you resolve this as I don't want to confuse you any further.

Edited to correct configuration thanks to Ian.

[Ian Worley]

What Jerry has said is correct except, when the guitar is upright the lowering tuners are the top row, the open note tuners are the bottom row. There is a threaded tuning knob at the bell crank on that lever for the E9 string 4 pull rod, they're usually called "half-tone tuners". On E9 string 4, you engage the C pedal and tune the F# raise at the keyhead, release the pedal and tune the open E note on the lower row of end plate screws, then engage the F lever and tune the intermediate F note using the half tone tuner on the rod. Looks like this:

half tone.jpg

[Carl Burcham]

Ian,
Greatly appreciated! It seems I need a new half tone tuner, the one I have looks quite grimy and dirty compared to the photo you included and mine will not rotate in the slightest, I’m assuming it should be fairly easy to rotate?


Thanks,
Carl

[Ian Worley]

...the one I have looks quite grimy and dirty compared to the photo you included and mine will not rotate in the slightest, I’m assuming it should be fairly easy to rotate?..

Yes it should rotate using just your fingers, but not too easily as it needs to retain its position for tuning stability. That's what the spring over the threads is for. Is it possibly just cranked all the way in? If so perhaps you can just back the set collar off a little and back the tuner out. In any case, it's worth trying to loosen it up first if possible. The amount of actual metal between the through-hole and the threads on those is fairly minimal. They can sometimes get bent a little and the threads will shear, causing them to bind. If that's what's happened to yours you'll need to replace it. PSG Parts may have one, or Wayne Brown at Out West Country Music in Canada

[Jerry Overstreet]

Thanks for the correction Ian. As I said it's been a long time since I've seen one. I guess I was looking at the guitar in the case.

Sorry for any confusion Carl.

I'll correct my posts. Thanks.